STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
OK, we heard the reasons that American courts might approve the arrest of Maduro. What about international law? We've called Mary Ellen O'Connell, professor of international peace studies at the University of Notre Dame, the Kroc Institute there. Welcome to the program.
MARY ELLEN O'CONNELL: Thank you very much, Steve.
INSKEEP: OK, when you focus on international law, was this action legal?
O'CONNELL: I'm afraid to say that there's very little that's legal about what the United States did vis-a-vis Venezuela a few days ago. It really falls into three big categories. There's that initial use of military force, a clear violation of the U.N. Charter, to capture Maduro and Flores. Then there is the criminal case in the U.S. And Carrie is right. U.S. courts will be sympathetic to the executive branch's case, but international law has some very clear red lines that have been crossed in that case. And then there's the future of Venezuela, the law governing whether a foreign country, another state, can go into an independent sovereign state and run it as if it was a colony or an occupation zone. So big problems in all three categories.
INSKEEP: You just referred to the U.N. Charter, the United Nations Charter. The United Nations Security Council is meeting in an emergency session today. What is the Security Council's role here, if any?
O'CONNELL: The Security Council has the emergency powers to oversee peace and security in the world. So when something like this happens, a major use of military force that is clearly unlawful, it's the duty of the Security Council to come together and debate that. In the case where there's a country that's not a permanent member of the Security Council, there will be likely sanctions or other very severe actions taken. In this case, it will be an airing of the international law that the United States has violated, as opposed to any sanctions against the U.S. of a more definite kind, because the U.S. is one of the permanent members of the Security Council and has the power to veto any strong sanctions.
But the international community, I'm confident, wants to bring the message to the U.S. that what happened on January 3 is unlawful. It's against the rules. It should not be taken by any other country to be a precedent, something that they should follow on. And they will be demanding that the United States regularize the situation, withdraw from Venezuela, return Maduro and Flores, other concrete steps to show that the U.S. is in compliance and committed to the rules of the international system.
INSKEEP: Is there a case to be made here? In fact, let's be frank, there is a case. The United States is going to be making the case, effectively, that might makes right here. They were able to take Maduro and bring him to the United States, so that has been done. It's not going to be undone. They're going to tell Venezuela what to do, and we don't know what Venezuela exactly is going to do about that yet, and that is really the situation.
O'CONNELL: And that will put the U.S. in a very awkward position, an untenable position, from my perspective. The U.S. has taken the lead on enforcing the international law of peace. We are the main drafters of the United Nations Charter, including its core provision prohibiting the use of military force in cases like the Venezuela one, when there's not been an attack on the United States or an authorization by the Security Council.
The U.S. has been very clear since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine that it's violating that very same rule, Article 2, Paragraph 4 of the charter. And we really want the United States to continue to lead. They're all going to ask the U.S. to return to this role of leadership in creating an orderly, fair, just and peaceful international system.
INSKEEP: OK. Mary Ellen O'Connell is a professor of international peace studies at the University of Notre Dame. Thanks so much.
O'CONNELL: Thank you.
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